Natural Muscle

Boards => Competitive Bodybuilding => Topic started by: Crimble on April 09, 2013, 10:06:58 AM



Title: banned substances
Post by: Crimble on April 09, 2013, 10:06:58 AM
Can anybody see anything in the below list which might be banned in a natty show?

Everything looks pretty kosher to me but just thought I would check with some more experienced eyes.

beta-alanine, L-arginine alpha-ketoglutarate, citruline malate, creatine monohydrate, sodium citrate, citric acid - acidity regulator, creatine malate, calcium phosphate, aromas, silicon dioxide - anti-caking agent, L-tyrosine, caffeine, malic acid - acidity regulator; acesulfam k, sucralose - sweeteners, nicotinamide - niacin, Cayenne pepper extract (Capsicum annuum L.), black pepper extract (Piper nigrum L.) Bioperine, pyridoxine hydrochloride - vit. B6, thiamine hydrochloride - vit. B1,


Title: Re: banned substances
Post by: Natural Oak on April 10, 2013, 06:13:06 PM
Would be best to check Globaldro.com  Good practice to get into.


Title: Re: banned substances
Post by: Monbeef on April 16, 2013, 06:34:54 PM
There is nothing banned there.

But its always worth checking.

It's clearly a pre-workout. Which one is it?


Title: Re: banned substances
Post by: SteHowie on April 19, 2013, 02:50:50 PM
Man it is fast approaching the time not to take anything, including food - unless from a trusted source (nearly put Horse  ;D)

Was asked a few weeks ago about bitter orange - it is used in the vast majortiy of fat burners and Global DRO doesn't ban this.  But when you really start to dig.....
I searched under Zhi Shi1 as that is the herb it is derived from, zip. assume safe
I then looked at the alkaloids so Synephrine, which is the main alkaloid in bitter orange - it is not banned and is safe in competition
It also contains the alkaloid Tyramine - not banned
Then N-methyltyramine not banned
And then octopamine which  - woah hold on - ....................................
is banned in competition
- and then if you look at the reason - if you take it by intravenous infusion or injection of over 50ml in 6 hours - the actual substance itself is not prohibited.

BUT if push now came to shove and I was under a Poly - and I was asked if I knowingly took a banned substance in the run up to a show - would I pass or fail? - knowing that an Alkaloid element in Bitter Orange is banned.  But bearing in mind the banned Alkaloid is a trace in the product, most only have 5g of bitter orange in total in a tab - so a smalll percentage of the 5g - and way under the recommended baned doseage??

It is starting to become an absolute mind field - and shouldn't the manufactuers now add notification to labels? Or are we too smal a minoroty to register?

Luckily I am not using fat Burners to shred.


Title: Re: banned substances
Post by: Toby on April 19, 2013, 02:58:57 PM
Or are we too smal a minoroty to register?

Drug free sportspeople are clearly a minority  8)


Title: Re: banned substances
Post by: SteHowie on April 19, 2013, 03:39:26 PM
Thing is I am still none the wiser if Bitter Orange is safe to use????

This is supposed to clear things up for us all - but if I didn't dig down into the derivatives of the Alkaloids - it would be totally safe to use - and I just wonder as it is trace - would a pee test really pick up something like that?

And if it did - the poor sod who would get banned would feel very agrieved.


Title: Re: banned substances
Post by: Crimble on April 20, 2013, 02:03:01 PM

It is definately a minefield with all the derivitaves and whatnot.

And even if you check all the list of ingredients meticulously you don't know if the supplement companies are not declaring anything untoward. It's not unheard of in the past for things to be declared wrong or not at all.

Would an email from the product manufacturer confirming that the product is indeed suitable for Olympic tested athletes go someway in protecting yourself?



Title: Re: banned substances
Post by: Nic on April 20, 2013, 10:40:52 PM
The only way to get that level of certainty is to use products which have been through the Informed Sport testing procedure (they will carry the logo).

Re bitter orange, I'm still confused exactly as Steve says, and remember having this conversation last year (and never coming to any definite conclusion then either)

Grenade is one well known product with bitter orange in it.


Title: Re: banned substances
Post by: SuperSi on April 22, 2013, 10:35:42 AM
Bitter Orange Peel isn't banned - Maxi Thermobol contains Bitter Orange and is tested on the Informed Sport programme. Countless drug tested athletes have used Bitter Orange.

Octopamine is banned. The intravenous part refers to any substance, not specifically Octopamine. The concern is if companies are mislabelling Bitter Orange.

Synephrine is on the monitoring programme (not banned, but tested for to establish use).


Title: Re: banned substances
Post by: Crimble on April 22, 2013, 12:37:12 PM

"Synephrine is on the monitoring programme (not banned, but tested for to establish use)."


Does that mean we can use products with synerphrine in? say in a pre-workout or fat burner?


Title: Re: banned substances
Post by: SuperSi on April 22, 2013, 05:18:35 PM
Yes, drug test wise, Synephrine isn't banned. However, technically, you shouldn't find it in products due to its status with the MHRA (Medicines Agency).


Title: Re: banned substances
Post by: Monbeef on April 22, 2013, 07:26:21 PM
Everyone remember something - prohormones weren't banned once upon a time. People didn't really nderstand them, used them 'sport legally' and were fine. Until they were banned and they were then not eligible to compete in the NPA for the rest of their lives.

What if something takes on banned status soon? In-comp bans would need some thought, but if for some reason WADA banned a product out-of-comp that people had used, the NPA lifetime rules would then render the ineligible to compete. Something like DAA or other test booster or hormone effecting supplement.

Luckily with myostatin inhibitors, WADA have already banned everything that inhibits it whether its invented yet or not!

I still can't understand the lifetime ban rule. Sure thing of Kevin Levrone turned up to compete, but so many people try products like Novedex XT or hormones from the internet that didn't work, or even small doses of steroids when they were far younger. After 10 years I honestly don't think they still have an advantage.
It's too hard to differentiate of course so I see the NPA point, I just feel like its saying people who tried products but are still naturally built aren't as pure as the rest.

Re the lack of advantage, Kevin Levrone is now barely bigger than large naturals, and he was competing massive in the IFBB under 10 years ago. Baring in mind he'd be a huge natural, he is clearly built for hypertrophy and dedication as can be seen by what he once was even as a user. I don't think he's any bigger now than he would be if he'd always been drug free.

Bit of a statement but that's what I think.


Title: Re: banned substances
Post by: Monbeef on April 23, 2013, 07:21:35 PM
You would have probably been a big natural anyway! Weren't you early 20's? Too young to have been at your best naturally.


Title: Re: banned substances
Post by: Crimble on April 25, 2013, 06:02:16 PM
Quote
"BUT if push now came to shove and I was under a Poly - and I was asked if I knowingly took a banned substance in the run up to a show - would I pass or fail? - knowing that an Alkaloid element in Bitter Orange is banned.  But bearing in mind the banned Alkaloid is a trace in the product, most only have 5g of bitter orange in total in a tab - so a smalll percentage of the 5g - and way under the recommended baned doseage??"
[/color]



SteHowie definately makes a good point there. What the hell happens on a polygraph test when you are unsure about something like that? It's easy to have doubt on a lot of ingredients in terms of derivatives ect, as we have been discussing in this thread.

Would be harsh if somebody had never taken anything banned their whole life and failed a poly just because of being a little unsure.


Title: Re: banned substances
Post by: Monbeef on April 25, 2013, 07:27:33 PM
Certainly. And how many people don't know they have taken things and passed, and how many think they have when they haven't and fail?

What about Steve Davies? If what he says is true and I have always believed him personally. He would've passed a poly having taken superdrol. He did not know he took anything banned. If he hadn't taken the short half-lived, quick-exiting steroid within 2 weeks of the show he wouldn't have pissed anything and wouldn't have known about it when asked on the poly, thus not lying.

But then is not knowing cheating? Is wanting to cheat but not, an offence?

Ignorance of the law is no defence. But mens rea IS a key element.

THOSE are the problems with polygraphs.


Title: Re: banned substances
Post by: Mr Hypertrophy on April 27, 2013, 10:57:28 AM

What if something takes on banned status soon? In-comp bans would need some thought, but if for some reason WADA banned a product out-of-comp that people had used, the NPA lifetime rules would then render the ineligible to compete. Something like DAA or other test booster or hormone effecting supplement.



Thats an interesting point, surely people have taken DMAA before in products like Jack3d, would they fail a poly?


Title: Re: banned substances
Post by: Jon Bibb on April 27, 2013, 06:47:48 PM

What if something takes on banned status soon? In-comp bans would need some thought, but if for some reason WADA banned a product out-of-comp that people had used, the NPA lifetime rules would then render the ineligible to compete. Something like DAA or other test booster or hormone effecting supplement.



Thats an interesting point, surely people have taken DMAA before in products like Jack3d, would they fail a poly?
Only if they lied about the usage. Always admit to previous use of currently banned substances or you will fail the poly .


Title: Re: banned substances
Post by: Monbeef on April 28, 2013, 02:22:44 PM
Wasn't there someone before my time (Chris Jones or someone?) who had taken prohormones when they were allowed but never once they were banned and was then banned himself after competing?

If he lied then fine, his fault. But the fact remained that he wasn't eligible to compete with the NPA because he used prohormones when they were allowed. What if that happened now with DAA etc? (Not DMAA which is only banned in comp).

If I'm wrong about Chris Jones, sorry I don't know the story or the name! But the point is still relevant.


Title: Re: banned substances
Post by: fhwill on April 29, 2013, 04:42:40 PM
I know that with BNBF Poly's the polygrapher will tell you if he's concerned i.e. a reading isn't quite right; and will give you the chance to air anything you've got on your mind.

I.E. If I used a product with Bitter Orange peel, and I was unsure going into the Poly; and I got to the end and he was umming and ahhing and suspected something; I could then tell him my concern over what I'd taken and re-do the test accordingly, and then pass. If he was concerned, I denied any concerns/knowledge and he continued with the Poly and was still not happy; I'd fail.

I know that from the experience of a past competitor who told me.

Moral of the tale, if you're not sure -ask before you go into the Polygraph!  ;D
Or, don't take anything you're remotely unsure of (I do this one).


Title: Re: banned substances
Post by: SteHowie on April 30, 2013, 07:59:04 AM
Thats interesting.  My take is if a reading isn't quite right - you fail!

Before the poly - you are given the chance to come clean on anything untoward - if you don't then you have lied.

Or is a poly not black and white?

also they use double blind questions

Give me a positive - is your name Fred

Give me a negative is your name Fred - as truth and untruth come from different parrts of the brain, so have a differnt chemcial and electircal response - so clearly marking down which answer is which.
Mind you when you are trying to work out what is negative and positive in a carb depleted state - you could be saying anything!!


Title: Re: banned substances
Post by: Toby on April 30, 2013, 08:09:27 AM
Thats interesting.  My take is if a reading isn't quite right - you fail!

Before the poly - you are given the chance to come clean on anything untoward - if you don't then you have lied.


I thought it was simply a case of determining if you have used something you shouldn't, not whether you lied. I may think creatine is banned for example, lie in the test, they see the lie and rather than failing they try to ascertain what I took and more questions reveal it was not a banned substance. Surely you cannot be banned for lying itself but only if the lie is to cover up an actual banned substance


Title: Re: banned substances
Post by: Jon Bibb on April 30, 2013, 11:47:07 AM
The testers will fully explain what to do during the test before it begins.It will not necessarily determine the exact substance used but if you lie on a question such as 'have you ever used anabolic steroids' or 'have you used a banned substance since joining the NPA' then you will fail . It's fairly straightforward really.


Title: Re: banned substances
Post by: Toby on April 30, 2013, 12:09:55 PM
Luckily I do not have to worry about such things then  ;D


Title: Re: banned substances
Post by: SteHowie on April 30, 2013, 02:39:57 PM
Good job they don't ask you about the women in your life Toby!!!!!  BEEEP BEEP - WHIRRRRRR
BOOM!!!!


Title: Re: banned substances
Post by: Nic on April 30, 2013, 03:09:23 PM
He wouldn't exactly be lying, he just wouldn't be able to remember!


Title: Re: banned substances
Post by: Toby on April 30, 2013, 03:55:27 PM
If they ask about that stuff Steve, I may be in there some time!


Title: Re: banned substances
Post by: SuperSi on April 30, 2013, 05:04:01 PM
Damn, some of y'all make this sound so complicated.

I've never come across any other sports that are the same. I guess it's due to the polygraph alongside concern over losing 'natural status.'


Title: Re: banned substances
Post by: Monbeef on April 30, 2013, 07:01:09 PM
Are other countries' feds as strict as UK feds?


Title: Re: banned substances
Post by: SuperSi on May 02, 2013, 05:25:06 PM
Are other countries' feds as strict as UK feds?

Do you mean bodybuilding feds or sport in general, mate?

If you mean sport in general, from my experience, UK Sport is one of the strictest (if not the strictest) for drug testing. Athletes I've work with have been drug tested a lot, any time between 06:00 and 23:00 (generally the early one!). This doesn't happen in all countries - far from it.


Title: Re: banned substances
Post by: Monbeef on May 02, 2013, 08:45:53 PM
I meant in both really. I like that UK Sport is strict as I agree with the way they test and what they test for. But are other BB feds as strict? As in polys and lifetime natural etc?
I do agree with polys. Whether they are accurate I don't know, but if you're clean you'll be confident and pass so there's no prob. I just cannot agree with lifetime natural. Maybe lifetime not-drug-abuser, but lifetime with no banned products before some people even know about the tiny world of natural BB isn't right IMO. Bearing in mind so many products are mainstream, not steroids, not illegal, so fine to anyone outside of tested sport. But those products rarely make a difference. Which leaves natural BBers branded as juicers for nothing.

On the other hand I understand its hard to differentiate and test any other way.


Title: Re: banned substances
Post by: Toby on May 03, 2013, 09:23:27 AM
I agree with that quite a lot Colin and one should not be penalised for indiscretions of the past for the rest of their life, not in the context of our sport anyway. I do not know the science of whether heavy gear usage would still give someone an advantage 7 years later so cannot argue that the lifetime natural status is needed from that standpoint.

If Heath never touched another banned substance but continued to follow a solid nutritional and training plan, what could / would he look like in 7 years? I would be fascinated to see that plus in an alternative universe see what he would look like compared to himself had he never used in his whole life. It is not just about how they look compared to others but how they have enhanced their own natural potential.

One point I think is worth raising is about choice. Some people, for whatever reason, want to compete against true lifetime naturals as that is what they are. Right or wrong, flawed arguments or not, they retain the right to feel that way and so there is an opportunity to go that route just as there is the option to go the seven year clean route if that is what you believe in.


Title: Re: banned substances
Post by: Monbeef on May 03, 2013, 10:19:49 AM
It's been done, Toby, as I mentioned before - Kevin Levrone. Olympia front runner. Notorious for dangerously high dose pre Olympia anabolic cycles. Some of the biggest arms and delts of all time.
And now after years clean but still training he looks the same as a big natural. Maybe smaller than Gozdecki or St.Lewis. Is that a result of gear use that he's a BIG natural? I doubt it. He was a BIG user. You don't become a world leading champ based on drugs alone. He is naturally gifted, juice or not.

I'm guessing he looks pretty much now like he would if he were always natural. The best to see would be Kai Greene. He was a top international drug tested bodybuilder, then got on it and is now a top assisted bodybuilder. If he stopped we could see if he returned to what he was.


Re the other points, my worry isn't those who used steroids and got big. They have the BNBF and UKDFBA and that's great.
It's people who knew not of natural bodybuilding, and used any of the random, mainstream advertised banned products that do not give them gains but do label them an unnatural bodybuilder. Their gains are their own. Yet, they arent eligible.


Title: Re: banned substances
Post by: Mr Hypertrophy on May 05, 2013, 12:18:42 PM
One point I think is worth raising is about choice. Some people, for whatever reason, want to compete against true lifetime naturals as that is what they are. Right or wrong, flawed arguments or not, they retain the right to feel that way and so there is an opportunity to go that route just as there is the option to go the seven year clean route if that is what you believe in.

This.

If you lose to someone who is 7 years clean and you are a true natural, the question will always be there, would they still have beat you if they were a true natural. I for one would only ever want to compete against lifetime naturals.

Question.

Cannabis.........what are the rules regarding this, is there a minimum period pre competition that you have to be clean, would you fail the poly if you admitted that you had used it as a rec drug?


Title: Re: banned substances
Post by: Toby on May 05, 2013, 12:40:28 PM
Question.

Cannabis.........what are the rules regarding this, is there a minimum period pre competition that you have to be clean, would you fail the poly if you admitted that you had used it as a rec drug?

You cannot use recreational drugs as a member of the NPA. Previous use is fine but not if it has happened within a year of joining the NPA I believe it is. Caught with recreational gets a warning or two year ban I believe depending on what it is. Class A is the two year ban and the cannabis is the warning.

I have used recreational in my misspent earlier days, before even training, lifting or even thinking about bodybuilding, literally years and years and years ago and have cleared it and had the matter discussed with the relevant people.

If you have anything in the past that concerns you I would say the simple solution is to just be honest and say what it is, I have and there is no issue with it but had there been I could have gone with alternatives eg the BNBF and seven year rule. Be honest as it will always come out anyway with a poly.


Title: Re: banned substances
Post by: Mr Hypertrophy on May 05, 2013, 12:58:47 PM
I have a friend who is planning to compete in the bnbf, its his first show and I saw him smoking last night, its not a regular occurrence, but wondered what risk he is running. I spoke to him about it so he wont be touching anything from now on.


Title: Re: banned substances
Post by: Toby on May 05, 2013, 01:41:46 PM
I would check with them upfront but I think he may not be able to compete this year.


Title: Re: banned substances
Post by: Mr Hypertrophy on May 05, 2013, 02:10:42 PM
I think I will forget I ever asked the question, it wont show in a urine test so it would only be an issue if he did a poly, in which case h will just have to be honest and see what happens.
Would be a shame, a silly mistake.


Title: Re: banned substances
Post by: Toby on May 05, 2013, 02:14:53 PM
I am not sure I am right to be honest hence I say he should ask and find out. But the issue is that to conceal it is deceit and the level of infraction should not matter as the line is clear and been set.

I could be talking out of my arse but don't recreational act as an appetite suppressor so it would have an effect.


Title: Re: banned substances
Post by: Mr Hypertrophy on May 05, 2013, 02:23:26 PM
I could be talking out of my arse but don't recreational act as an appetite suppressor so it would have an effect.

Cannabis, no, hence the munchies!

Read something saying for bnbf it is ok as long as its out your system on the day you are tested.


Title: Re: banned substances
Post by: Toby on May 05, 2013, 02:30:53 PM

Cannabis, no, hence the munchies!


Oh yeah! The total opposite then!


Title: Re: banned substances
Post by: Crimble on May 07, 2013, 04:48:13 PM

What are people's takes on DMAA products?

Does anyone know if people would get banned for using them previously "out of competition"?

I know they have been banned in the supplement industry within the last year or so. But before that I believe a hell of a load of people would have been using things like jack3d, 1MR, Hemo Rage etc without ever being aware of using a "banned substance".

A guy I train with who was considering competing in the Autumn time asked me if he would be eligable. I responded to him that I wasnt sure as I believe you have to have not used anything like that for at least a year before competition. His response was something like "I thought you could use things like that "out of competition" i.e before your prep, or around 3 months before doing a show".

We were left at a bit of a stalemate after that. Any input?



Title: Re: banned substances
Post by: Mr Hypertrophy on May 07, 2013, 05:02:46 PM
Dont quote me here, but I think DMAA is OK outside of competition, basically you are ok as long as it isn't in your system on the day you are tested.

DMAA was always too good to be true.


Title: Re: banned substances
Post by: Jon Bibb on May 07, 2013, 05:23:39 PM
DMAA should not be used within 1 year of competition or after joining the NPA.Previous use does not effect your natural status.One person tested positive for this last year and received a one year ban.


Title: Re: banned substances
Post by: Mr Hypertrophy on May 07, 2013, 10:32:44 PM
DMAA should not be used within 1 year of competition or after joining the NPA.Previous use does not effect your natural status.One person tested positive for this last year and received a one year ban.


So if someone has used within the last year they are ineligible to compete at NPA?

Is the same the case for BNBF?

Not sure when my friend stopped taking this, I think by the time the comp rolls around it probably will be a year.


Title: Re: banned substances
Post by: Monbeef on May 08, 2013, 05:40:05 AM
I believe with the BNBF it is on a test on the day basis like all other sports.


Title: Re: banned substances
Post by: Jon Bibb on May 08, 2013, 08:49:44 AM
It does seem unfair that use of over the counter supplements which were not banned at the time should lead to a lifetime ban especially when little or no advantage has been gained from their use,perhaps a amnesty after a certain number of years would be fairer? I do believe that drug use(steroids,growth hormone etc. ) should still be unacceptable for any competitor who wants to be classed as 'natural' whenever it occured.


Title: Re: banned substances
Post by: Mr Hypertrophy on May 15, 2013, 12:32:16 PM
My Friend has started taking these, I think I will start when I want to cut, more than anything I am interested in the Nootropic profile.

My Friend is competing at NPA and BNBF this year, will any of these ingredients cause him a problem in terms of being banned

Serving Size: 1 Pack

Therm Complex: 750mg
-Caffeine Anhydrous: 180mg
-Kola Nut: 180mg
-Guarana: 180mg
-Yerba Mate: 180mg
-Cocoa Extract: 30mg

Metabolic Complex: 750mg
-Green Tea Extract (containing naturally high polyphenol and EGCG levels): 300mg
-Oolong Tea Extract (containing naturally high polyphenol and EGCG levels): 300mg
-Black Tea Extract (containing naturally high polyphenol and EGCG levels): 75mg
-Coffee Bean Extract (containing naturally high polyphenol and EGCG levels): 75mg

T Complex: 350mg
-L-Tyrosine: 250mg
-Olive Leaf Extract (15% oleuropein): 50mg
-Salvia Officinalis: 50mg

Definition Complex: 800mg
-Hawthorne Berry: 400mg
-Astragalus: 150mg
-Celery Seed: 125mg
-Juniper Berry: 125mg

Nootropic Complex: 500mg
-Choline Bitartrate: 400mg
-Bacopa Monniera (bacopasides A & B): 50mg
-Cocoa (containing Beta Phenylehtylamine): 50mg

Cort Complex: 300mg
-Siberian Ginseng: 150mg
-Acetyl L-Carnitine: 75mg
-Carnitine Fumarate: 75mg

CCK Complex: 500mg
-Cha-de-bugre: 200mg
-Psyllium Seed Husk: 100mg

Bioavailability Complex: 500mg

-Ginger Root (gingerols, shogaols): 220mg
-Cayenne: 170mg
-Grapefruit: 60mg
-Quercetin: 25mg
-Naringin (citrus): 25mg



Title: Re: banned substances
Post by: Monbeef on May 15, 2013, 01:15:03 PM
I think phenylethylamine is banned mate. Don't confuse it with phenylalanine which is ok.

Nice to see a product with hawthorn berry and celery seed which are naturally good for blood pressure. With all those stims its a good idea.


Title: Re: banned substances
Post by: Mr Hypertrophy on May 15, 2013, 01:36:26 PM
I should have said, its the Universal Animal Cut product.

Here is a question, if it turns out one of the ingredients is banned but I dont tell him, surely he would pass a poly?


Title: Re: banned substances
Post by: Nic on May 15, 2013, 02:33:53 PM
I should have said, its the Universal Animal Cut product.

Here is a question, if it turns out one of the ingredients is banned but I dont tell him, surely he would pass a poly?

Depends what the question is - if it's "are you completely certain that there was no risk of a banned ingredient in any product you've taken?" then he can't say yes, if he didn't make it his business to find out and be sure.


Title: Re: banned substances
Post by: SteHowie on May 15, 2013, 04:25:57 PM
-Cocoa (containing Beta Phenylehtylamine): 50mg

Poo - bang goes my pre bedtime cup of cocoa, whipped cream and marshmellows - how can a man diet without his treats?


Title: Re: banned substances
Post by: Nic on May 15, 2013, 05:02:36 PM
Step away from the Double Decker, Steve. Bibb is watching.


Title: Re: banned substances
Post by: Monbeef on May 16, 2013, 05:24:03 AM
How does that work then? If phenylethylamine is banned but they're just listing cocoa, does all cocoa contain it? Is cocoa now banned?!


Title: Re: banned substances
Post by: SteHowie on May 16, 2013, 07:33:58 AM
 ;D I have had the same argument re bitter orange - which I posted a while back  ;D
As one of the alkaloid derivatives is banned.
I ended up phoning them and asking.
The alkaloid on its own as a pure form is banned but the alakloid naturally occuring in bitter orange isn't - clear as mud!!

So I would hazard an educated guess at no.

Or we would all be open to being baned for nibbling a bit of choc before we go on stage - and as I prefer dark choc - with more % cocoa then I would def be out!!


Title: Re: banned substances
Post by: Monbeef on May 17, 2013, 03:17:36 AM
I knew you had a secret weapon! Banned Lindt 70%!!!


Title: Re: banned substances
Post by: HideoKojima on January 29, 2019, 05:12:57 PM
Does anyone know? Are cbd products banned substances? Because attitudes towards it are pretty controversial. I heard about cbd tea and coffee https://greenshoppers.co.uk/blog/cbd-tea-and-cbd-coffee-the-next-big-thing-in-the-uk/ (https://greenshoppers.co.uk/blog/cbd-tea-and-cbd-coffee-the-next-big-thing-in-the-uk/). Interesting, are they banned too? After all, I see no harm in them but maybe conservative rules have something against them.