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Author Topic: banned substances  (Read 17253 times)
Crimble
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« on: April 09, 2013, 10:06:58 AM »

Can anybody see anything in the below list which might be banned in a natty show?

Everything looks pretty kosher to me but just thought I would check with some more experienced eyes.

beta-alanine, L-arginine alpha-ketoglutarate, citruline malate, creatine monohydrate, sodium citrate, citric acid - acidity regulator, creatine malate, calcium phosphate, aromas, silicon dioxide - anti-caking agent, L-tyrosine, caffeine, malic acid - acidity regulator; acesulfam k, sucralose - sweeteners, nicotinamide - niacin, Cayenne pepper extract (Capsicum annuum L.), black pepper extract (Piper nigrum L.) Bioperine, pyridoxine hydrochloride - vit. B6, thiamine hydrochloride - vit. B1,
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Natural Oak
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« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2013, 06:13:06 PM »

Would be best to check Globaldro.com  Good practice to get into.
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Monbeef
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« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2013, 06:34:54 PM »

There is nothing banned there.

But its always worth checking.

It's clearly a pre-workout. Which one is it?
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SteHowie
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« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2013, 02:50:50 PM »

Man it is fast approaching the time not to take anything, including food - unless from a trusted source (nearly put Horse  Grin)

Was asked a few weeks ago about bitter orange - it is used in the vast majortiy of fat burners and Global DRO doesn't ban this.  But when you really start to dig.....
I searched under Zhi Shi1 as that is the herb it is derived from, zip. assume safe
I then looked at the alkaloids so Synephrine, which is the main alkaloid in bitter orange - it is not banned and is safe in competition
It also contains the alkaloid Tyramine - not banned
Then N-methyltyramine not banned
And then octopamine which  - woah hold on - ....................................is banned in competition - and then if you look at the reason - if you take it by intravenous infusion or injection of over 50ml in 6 hours - the actual substance itself is not prohibited.

BUT if push now came to shove and I was under a Poly - and I was asked if I knowingly took a banned substance in the run up to a show - would I pass or fail? - knowing that an Alkaloid element in Bitter Orange is banned.  But bearing in mind the banned Alkaloid is a trace in the product, most only have 5g of bitter orange in total in a tab - so a smalll percentage of the 5g - and way under the recommended baned doseage??

It is starting to become an absolute mind field - and shouldn't the manufactuers now add notification to labels? Or are we too smal a minoroty to register?

Luckily I am not using fat Burners to shred.
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Toby
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« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2013, 02:58:57 PM »

Or are we too smal a minoroty to register?

Drug free sportspeople are clearly a minority  Cool
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SteHowie
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« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2013, 03:39:26 PM »

Thing is I am still none the wiser if Bitter Orange is safe to use?Huh

This is supposed to clear things up for us all - but if I didn't dig down into the derivatives of the Alkaloids - it would be totally safe to use - and I just wonder as it is trace - would a pee test really pick up something like that?

And if it did - the poor sod who would get banned would feel very agrieved.
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Crimble
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« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2013, 02:03:01 PM »


It is definately a minefield with all the derivitaves and whatnot.

And even if you check all the list of ingredients meticulously you don't know if the supplement companies are not declaring anything untoward. It's not unheard of in the past for things to be declared wrong or not at all.

Would an email from the product manufacturer confirming that the product is indeed suitable for Olympic tested athletes go someway in protecting yourself?

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Nic
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« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2013, 10:40:52 PM »

The only way to get that level of certainty is to use products which have been through the Informed Sport testing procedure (they will carry the logo).

Re bitter orange, I'm still confused exactly as Steve says, and remember having this conversation last year (and never coming to any definite conclusion then either)

Grenade is one well known product with bitter orange in it.
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SuperSi
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« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2013, 10:35:42 AM »

Bitter Orange Peel isn't banned - Maxi Thermobol contains Bitter Orange and is tested on the Informed Sport programme. Countless drug tested athletes have used Bitter Orange.

Octopamine is banned. The intravenous part refers to any substance, not specifically Octopamine. The concern is if companies are mislabelling Bitter Orange.

Synephrine is on the monitoring programme (not banned, but tested for to establish use).
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Crimble
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« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2013, 12:37:12 PM »


"Synephrine is on the monitoring programme (not banned, but tested for to establish use)."


Does that mean we can use products with synerphrine in? say in a pre-workout or fat burner?
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SuperSi
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« Reply #10 on: April 22, 2013, 05:18:35 PM »

Yes, drug test wise, Synephrine isn't banned. However, technically, you shouldn't find it in products due to its status with the MHRA (Medicines Agency).
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Monbeef
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« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2013, 07:26:21 PM »

Everyone remember something - prohormones weren't banned once upon a time. People didn't really nderstand them, used them 'sport legally' and were fine. Until they were banned and they were then not eligible to compete in the NPA for the rest of their lives.

What if something takes on banned status soon? In-comp bans would need some thought, but if for some reason WADA banned a product out-of-comp that people had used, the NPA lifetime rules would then render the ineligible to compete. Something like DAA or other test booster or hormone effecting supplement.

Luckily with myostatin inhibitors, WADA have already banned everything that inhibits it whether its invented yet or not!

I still can't understand the lifetime ban rule. Sure thing of Kevin Levrone turned up to compete, but so many people try products like Novedex XT or hormones from the internet that didn't work, or even small doses of steroids when they were far younger. After 10 years I honestly don't think they still have an advantage.
It's too hard to differentiate of course so I see the NPA point, I just feel like its saying people who tried products but are still naturally built aren't as pure as the rest.

Re the lack of advantage, Kevin Levrone is now barely bigger than large naturals, and he was competing massive in the IFBB under 10 years ago. Baring in mind he'd be a huge natural, he is clearly built for hypertrophy and dedication as can be seen by what he once was even as a user. I don't think he's any bigger now than he would be if he'd always been drug free.

Bit of a statement but that's what I think.
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Monbeef
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« Reply #12 on: April 23, 2013, 07:21:35 PM »

You would have probably been a big natural anyway! Weren't you early 20's? Too young to have been at your best naturally.
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Crimble
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« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2013, 06:02:16 PM »

Quote
"BUT if push now came to shove and I was under a Poly - and I was asked if I knowingly took a banned substance in the run up to a show - would I pass or fail? - knowing that an Alkaloid element in Bitter Orange is banned.  But bearing in mind the banned Alkaloid is a trace in the product, most only have 5g of bitter orange in total in a tab - so a smalll percentage of the 5g - and way under the recommended baned doseage??"
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SteHowie definately makes a good point there. What the hell happens on a polygraph test when you are unsure about something like that? It's easy to have doubt on a lot of ingredients in terms of derivatives ect, as we have been discussing in this thread.

Would be harsh if somebody had never taken anything banned their whole life and failed a poly just because of being a little unsure.
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Monbeef
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« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2013, 07:27:33 PM »

Certainly. And how many people don't know they have taken things and passed, and how many think they have when they haven't and fail?

What about Steve Davies? If what he says is true and I have always believed him personally. He would've passed a poly having taken superdrol. He did not know he took anything banned. If he hadn't taken the short half-lived, quick-exiting steroid within 2 weeks of the show he wouldn't have pissed anything and wouldn't have known about it when asked on the poly, thus not lying.

But then is not knowing cheating? Is wanting to cheat but not, an offence?

Ignorance of the law is no defence. But mens rea IS a key element.

THOSE are the problems with polygraphs.
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